Kendel's Messiah

A testimony unfolding


Science and God

Many people who reject the idea of God as irrelevant or superstitious boast in modern science as being an objective, bias-free worldview. They claim that the scientific-methodological tradition (called positivism) is free from theological speculation. Positivism holds that only those things that are observable, testable via experiments, and logical provide factual knowledge. Positivists reject theology and metaphysics as being pointless because these, they say, cannot be verified or falsified through observation and experiments.

What I find to be the problem with positivism is not its strict, empirical principle – it’s that it doesn’t practice what it preaches.

Some people claim that science cannot verify God’s existence. This claim, however, builds on an assumption of what God is, and is therefore faith-based. This negative assumption is no more empirically based than the assumption that science indeed can verify God’s existence. Why is it more reasonable to assume that God is something that is not verifiable or observable through scientific study?

Positivism’s theological dogma. Positivism establishes reasonable, core principles for developing knowledge that many people across different philosophies and faiths can agree with: Our knowledge must be grounded in real, observable evidence that can be tested and that is logically coherent. But when positivists claim that God or God’s existence cannot be empirically verified through observation or logic, they make a theological statement that is as “speculative” or faith-based as any other theological statement. Positivism acknowledges that the laws and forces at work in nature indeed are verifiable—but positivism makes the assumption that these observable phenomena have no theological relevance or significance, although the empirical evidence and logical reasoning does not at all require us to make such an assumption. Quite the contrary!

The mathematical order and logic pervading nature, the complexity and fine-tuning of the laws at work, are the clearest and most objective and compelling evidence of a Supreme Intelligence. Several of the most prominent scientists in history saw the logic pervading the universe as empirical evidence of an intelligent Creator. So did the Greek philosophers, of which many were pantheists. Pantheists see nature itself as the Supreme Being manifesting itself to our senses. The assumption that the forces and laws in nature are the outworking of blind and mechanical principles is not at all evident or the most reasonable option.

In completely rejecting all theology as speculative and un-empirical, positivists make a dogmatic theological and metaphysical statement: God is not observable with our senses, they preach. Nature is driven by mechanical, blind forces, they preach. This agnostic philosophy they claim to be the neutral view—but it is in fact a metaphysical and theological view that in no way is more empirical or scientific than theistic views.

This is what I think makes true positivists particularly challenging to reason with, because positivism in word claims theological neutrality while it in practice promotes a modern and widely accepted metaphysical and theological (secular, agnostic/atheist) worldview camouflaged as empirical thinking. Positivism is agnosticism; it pretends neutrality in questions about God while in reality perpetuating dogma about God that are practically atheistic: “God is unknowable”, “God is non-physical”, “God is non-observable”, “God is non-intelligible” etc. and finally, “God is non-real”. These beliefs about God are completely valid from a philosophical standpoint (like any other philosophical belief), but they are no more empirical than theism. They are beliefs about God.

Thus, positivism that despises theology is fundamentally self-contradictory and hypocritical. It pretends objectivity in a way that discourages its adherents from truly thinking critically about the most fundamental questions in life, including questions of knowledge. A philosophical self-awareness is necessary for the development of any kind of knowledge, and there is no such thing as a theologically or metaphysically neutral philosophy when we understand the all-encompassing implications of the concepts of God and nature.

Comte’s views on nature, theology, and atheism. Reading up on positivism, I found Auguste Comte’s (the pioneer of positivism) own definition of positivism according to positivists.org:

The true Positive spirit consists in substituting the study of the invariable Laws of phenomena for that of their so-called Causes, whether proximate or primary; in a word, in studying the How instead of the Why. (…) The principle of Theology is to explain everything by supernatural Wills. That principle can never be set aside until we acknowledge the search for Causes to be beyond our reach, and limit ourselves to the knowledge of Laws.

Auguste Comte, A General View of Positivism [1848] (London: Routledge & Sons, 1908), pp. 50-53

Comte says that the point of positivism is to study the how (“how does the universe work”), not the why (“why does the universe exist”). The why is the realm of theology and is speculative, he says. Comte continues to say that the search for “Causes” (the why) is something beyond our reach as human beings. Therefore, positivists should limit themselves to the knowledge of the laws of nature.

My question is: How does Comte know so confidently that the “Causes” are beyond our reach? Does not positivism teach that the laws and forces in nature themselves are the causes, the why, to the universe’s existence? How can Comte then ascertain that these are not the same as the “Causes” addressed in theology? What kind of theological Causes does he envision since he can ascertain that they are completely beyond our reach? This is the agnostic assumption that mystifies and separates theology from the observable reality in a way that is not at all self-evident or necessary.

We must critically ask ourselves what kind of proof or evidence we imagine to be necessary in order to verify the existence of an intelligent Creator, and whether our ideas are sensible.

“The whole world is a series of miracles, but we’re so used to them we call them ordinary things.”

— Hans Christian Andersen (1805-1875), Danish author and poet

Considering how many atheists pride themselves in their so-called scientific worldview, it’s interesting to note that Comte himself viewed atheism as even more illogical than theism:

The Order of Nature is doubtless very imperfect in every respect; but its production is far more compatible with the hypothesis of an intelligent Will than with that of a blind mechanism. Persistent atheists therefore would seem to be most illogical of theologists: because they occupy themselves with theological problems, and yet reject the only appropriate method of handling them.

Auguste Comte, pp. 50-53

Comte makes the point that atheism indeed is a theological belief (“God does not exist”) and therefore not free from speculation. However, positivism is here again presented by Comte as the reliable, speculation-free solution because it is supposedly “theology-free”. My response to that is that positivism (agnosticism) is as much a theological teaching as atheism. While atheism teaches that God is not real and doesn’t exist, agnosticism teaches that God is not observable and therefore unknowable. Both atheism’s and agnosticism’s views present theological ideas about God and are, in Comte’s own terms, “speculative” or faith-based. Positivism is therefore not at all free from theological speculation.

The religious outcome of positivism. As theologically neutral and religiously objective as positivism presented itself to be, its logical implications indeed proved to be religious. Comte was the founder of a religion in which the object of worship was humanity.

Thus Positivism becomes, in the true sense of the word, a Religion; the only religion which is real and complete; destined therefore to replace all imperfect and provisional systems resting on the primitive basis of theology.

Auguste Comte, pp. 363-365

It becomes particularly evident from the next quote that positivism was not as theologically neutral as Comte claimed.

With such a mission, Science acquires a position of unparalleled importance, as the sole means through which we come to know the nature and conditions of this Great Being [Humanity, of which every individual is the conscious element and of which this Great Being is composed], the worship of whom should be the distinctive feature of our whole life. For this all-important knowledge, the study of Sociology would seem to suffice: but Sociology itself depends upon preliminary study, first of the outer world, in which the actions of Humanity take place; and secondly, of Man, the individual agent.

Auguste Comte, pp. 368-374

If the theological dogma embedded in positivism weren’t clear before, they become clearer now with positivism’s explicit deification of humanity. In the worship of humanity as “the distinctive feature of our whole life”, humanity takes the transcendent role – namely, the role of God. This is the fruits of atheism, the denial of any greater power or moral authority than humanity. An atheistic lifestyle is the practical result of agnosticism.

The object of Positivist worship is not like that of theological believers an absolute, isolated, incomprehensible Being, whose existence admits of no demonstration, or comparison with anything real. The evidence of the Being here set forward is spontaneous, and is shrouded in no mystery. Before we can praise, love, and serve Humanity as we ought, we must know something of the laws which govern her existence, an existence more complicated than any other of which we are cognizant.

Auguste Comte, pp. 368-374

Obviously, I personally disagree with positivism’s theology and would argue that worshiping humanity as the greatest being is superstitious and unreasonable since humanity evidently did not create the universe nor ourselves. However, as a religious practice it’s completely valid. The core issue here is that it as a philosophy claims to be non-theological or theologically neutral when it truly isn’t. That’s self-deception.

Serving humanity is doing theology. It’s interesting to note that Comte connects the “praise, love, and service of Humanity” to the development of knowledge of the laws that govern human existence. This, he says, is the noble work of sociology. As a graduate myself majoring in sociology and theology, I have learned one thing: Faith in God serves humanity’s needs in so many ways that it is fundamentally un-sociological and anti-human to treat theology as irrelevant or unnecessary. The self-defeat of positivism seen in history (positivism turning into a religion) demonstrates that it’s not possible, nor is it in humanity’s best interest, to rid oneself of faith and religion. All is ultimately faith; here the agnostic point that we cannot have any absolute, infallible knowledge rings true. If positivism was truly agnostic and pragmatic (as positivists.org claims), there would be no hypocritical prejudice against faith and theology. There would be no imagined requirement to choose between science and religion, between the how and the why. Both are useful tools of developing practical knowledge; both complement each other and can contribute to making sense of the world and bettering life for us and humanity in different ways. And both validate and support each other.

The distraction of social status and academia. I think it’s sad how the ideological aspects of positivism pervading modern science and academia have robbed many people of some of the learning experiences that to me have been the most practical, meaningful and growth-inspiring parts in life. We’re easily swayed by social status and majority trends. I believe the atheist/agnostic trend is shifting and will shift even more as more scientists step forward enlightened by their discoveries and reaffirming the existence of a Creator. The next thing that we’ll need to discuss more openly as a society is how philosophy, theology, and science can inform us concerning the Creator’s character and will.

“For it is written, ‘I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and the discernment of the discerning I will thwart.’ […] God chose what is foolish in the world to shame the wise; God chose what is weak in the world to shame the strong; God chose what is low and despised in the world, even things that are not, to bring to nothing things that are, so that no human being might boast in the presence of God. […]

Let no one deceive himself. If anyone among you thinks that he is wise in this age, let him become a fool that he may become wise. For the wisdom of this world is folly with God. For it is written, ‘He catches the wise in their craftiness,’ and again, ‘The Lord knows the thoughts of the wise, that they are futile.’”

— Paul of Tarsus, in 1 Corinthians 1:19-29 and 3:18-20 (ESV)

Some view the idea of a personal, Supreme Being as childish and anthropocentric. But arguments insinuating that certain ideas are too simple to be considered and critically assessed are fallacious and unscientific. Firstly, there is nothing simple about personal beings. Our own existence as personal beings is “more complicated than any other of which we are cognizant”, according to Comte. Personal beings are more complex than any other lifeforms on earth. The idea that an intelligent and personal Supreme Being is childish is decidedly fallacious and self-contradictory.

Secondly, the idea of a personal Supreme Being is only simple in the sense that it’s practical. Even from a young age can we relate to such an idea since we ourselves are personal beings. The truth is that we all have an analogous, simplified understanding of the world because that’s how we make sense of and use knowledge – by comparing greater, more complex realities to lesser and simpler things from our own experience. Our understanding of the universe is decidedly childish precisely because it’s simplified. And it’s simplified in order to be practical. There’s nothing shameful or untruthful about that. The only thing that’s shameful or untruthful is pretending that we can be free from this epistemological predicament. Ideas that we regard as simple are often the most effective and powerful due to their practical worth.

Thirdly, if there is a personal Creator, there is nothing childish or anthropocentric about assuming that the Creator would make Himself relatable to His creation. We observe the fundamentally social and parental behavior not only in humans, but in all intelligent forms of life. Why should we assume anything else about higher forms of life?

Lastly, from a moral perspective and considering the fact that human pride and selfishness is root to so much evil and suffering in our world, it makes sense morally that a Supreme Being would communicate through that which is common and accessible also to the unprivileged rather than through some kind of social or cultural elite. The common, childlike faith in a personal God has been viewed by many academics as foolish, but what if this is a key to a better life and a better world? What if God indeed is so readily available that elitists and the proud won’t see it? What if this is a powerful lesson to the human pride and selfishness in our world?

There are other problems that undeniably arise with the idea of a personal Creator—perhaps most importantly the problem of evil. This probably is the easiest and most popular excuse for persistent atheism. It’s a deeply emotional moral problem that many have a hard time exploring critically. How can God be good when there’s so much evil and suffering in the world? This will be the topic for another testimony.

This is my testimony. What is yours? Feel free to share in the comment section below!


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13 responses to “Science and God”

  1. notabilia Avatar

    Just an entire ball of theological yarn – complete and utter nonsense. Say hello to your little “personal being” for us antitheismists, OK?

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    1. davidkendel Avatar
      davidkendel

      Hey! If you want to engage and enlighten you’re more than welcome to present your views and make a strong case for antitheism. If you want to feel good about yourself, carry on.

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      1. notabilia Avatar

        No, this will suffice. Anyone trying to post an abjuration against the basic truths of atheism needs to get an emphatic response – but not “debate,” because there is nothing but superstition and nonsense in claims for the presence of the little people or ID or the sky father, and time is also too short for “respect” and “civility” about these theologyical inventions.
        There are other matters you are no doubt capable of engaging with others on an respectable, intelligent basis, but your brain is too far gone on this subject.
        That’s not to call you a “child,” but to say you have a very common cognitive affliction on this matter (I hope you have more rigorous analytical tools in sociology), for which you will likely never find a way around.

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  2. clubschadenfreude Avatar

    “As a graduate myself majoring in sociology and theology, I have learned one thing: Faith in God serves humanity’s needs in so many ways that it is fundamentally un-sociological to treat theology is irrelevant or unnecessary. ”

    Baseless assumption shown to be wrong since there are more and more secular countries and people. We also know that religion causes harm to people with its false promises and bigotry. It is irrelevant, unnecessary and harmful.

    And unsurprisingly, appeals to morality fail since theists, including christians, can’t agree on what morals their god wants. Add to this the fact that many chritsians have no problem with their god doing horrendous things that, hopefully, they would be horrified if a human did the same, and we get to see that christian morality is entirely subjective, based on who or what is doing something, rather than any objective morality associated with an action.

    “How can God be good when there’s so much evil and suffering in the world? ”

    It is not good, just or fair, even in the myths. No reason to assume it is real, or just or fair in reality.

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    1. davidkendel Avatar
      davidkendel

      Hey! Thanks for sharing your point of view. Here’s my response:

      1. Religion and faith has been shown to have a lot of health benefits. Of course there are bad/harmful religious practices and beliefs, too. Extremism comes in many forms, also religious. There’s good and bad of everything. Is doing politics evil since it causes so many people to disagree and fight, often over very trivial matters? Is it harmful in and of itself to believe in something? Of course not.

      You’re generalizing certain human phenomena (corruption, violence, exploitation, manipulation, harm) found in various religious contexts and ascribing it to all religion is the source and first cause. But you’re ignoring the fact that the same problems are found everywhere in all contexts, also secular ones. If you believe that religion is merely a human invention, you should also acknowledge that the problem isn’t religion, but human nature.

      2. People disagree about literally everything in our world, even whether the earth is round or not. It’s a natural result of having each our own mind and limited perspective on truth. Religious people including Christians disagree on many points – but they agree on many points, too. I think it’s silly to expect truth to be something that everyone is going to fully agree on when there never has been a point in time or a social context where that was the case, as far as we know. Seemingly contradicting principles can be true at the same time, too, like a geometrical shape that is both round and square (a cylinder). Disagreement is not a valid excuse for complacency.

      3. I can share that I’m not a Christian because of the Old Testament, but because of Jesus and the New Testament. Many atheists and antitheists love to oppose bad gods, but lose interest when talking about Jesus. I think we really cared that much about morality, we’d pursue what is good rather than just looking for and condemning what is bad. Jesus is a fascinating figure and is the basis for the Christian faith. Don’t forget that.

      My studies of the Bible tells me it gives room for both the objective (principle) and subjective/contextual (practical) aspect of morality. The 10 commandments, for instance, express universal principles, but they must be interpreted into a practical context. I don’t agree with you that Christian morality is entirely subjective, not at all.

      4. I obviously disagree. I think a good God has to allow freedom of choice, and thus, permit evil to exist at some level and for some time. When a child disobeys and does what is bad, a wise parent will allow the child to take some of the consequences for their own disobedience to help them learn to do what is good. The existence of evil does not prove that God is evil, but it does prove that human beings are evil.

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      1. clubschadenfreude Avatar

        Religion and faith have not been shown to have a lot of health benefits. What have been shown to have those are the socialization of humans and various mindful ideas which can often be related to religion. It is notable that no particular religion can be shown to have any benefits at all beyond the noted. Despite the promises in the bible that all prayers will be answered with what is asked for, no exceptions or excuses, and that true believers can heal illness and injury, there is no evidence that religion does anything at all.

        Religion makes claims of absolute truth, which politics, etc don’t. It also uses the idea of “us” and “them” as ways to separate people, most insisting that those who aren’t in the cult deserve death and worse. Thus, yes, it is harmful in and of itself to believe in something, since belief is not separate from action.
        I am not generalizing human phenomena. Religion causes very specific actions. The religion is the source and first cause of the idea of the “chosen” people.
        Yes, people disagree about many things. It is only religion that claims an absolute truth in its claims, and again, Christians can’t agree on which “absolute truth” amongst the many they’ve invented.

        So your claims of limited perspective of the truth is quite right, but not the excuse you are looking for.

        The only thing that Christians can be shown to agree on is that one must believe in this character to be “saved”. The details on the belief, the nature of the charcter, and what one must be saved from, all differ. They also differ on quite basic things in the religion: free will vs. predestion, which parts of the bible to claim as literal, metaphor, exaggeration, etc, what heaven and hell are and how long will one be there, what baptism means and how to do it, what morals this god wants, the “end times” nonsense, etc. All quite basic to the theology.

        A cylinder is not square in any definition of the term.
        You are a Christian, exactly which version I am sure. You are stuck with the OT since this jesus says that all of this god’s laws are to be follows until the world ends. Your god is nothing good, committing and commanding genocide, killing children for the actions of others, and telling slaves to never seek their freedom.

        You speak of morality, but again, you cannot show what your god supposedly wans as morality, and as noted above, genocide, killing people for actions they had no control over, etc are not considered moral by many. You seem to have one morality for your god and for humans. That doesn’t work with the idea of objective morality since objective morals would apply to everyone. So pursuing what is “good” is entirely subjective, as is condemning bad.

        There are some morals that are common, since they help civilization work but that does not make them objective.

        Jesus is a fascinating figure since the bible presents so many different versions.

        Your bible studies seem to have failed since the first ten commandments in Exodus don’t express universal principles at all, since you cannot demonstrate them as universal. Those commandments consider women as property, ignore the fact that some parents don’t deserve honoring, and it assumes that this one ignorant god should be worshipped and no others. It also has this god saying that it will punish people for things they haven’t done, a lovely demonstration of injustice and unfairness.

        As for the practical context, what is that to be since chritsians themselves can’t agree on what laws they want to pick and choose from. The first ten of the commandments don’t say that they are any better or are separate from the rest in Exodus, Leviticus, etc. You Christians ignore when your god says kill adulterers, but insist that we should hate LGBT+ folks from laws about that in the same set. That is hypocrisy.

        Per your own bible, there is no freedom of choice. As soon as this god interferes with anything, choice ends. We also see this god killing people who did nothing wrong, also destroy choice. And both Jesus and Paul declare that this god has already chosen who it will allow to accept it and that it damns the rest for no reason (Matthew 13 and Romans 9).

        An abusive parent will allow a child to be hurt to “teach them a lesson”. Unfortunately, Christians do have an abusive deity, that is happily imaginary. Telling someone “obey me or I’ll torture you forever” isn’t love.

        Human beings can be evil, e.g. harmful to each other, etc. They can also be good. No god needed.

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      2. davidkendel Avatar
        davidkendel

        I’m speaking of the natural health benefits of believing in some greater meaning and having a purpose in life. Yes, this doesn’t only apply to religion but to various kinds of philosophies and ideologies. But the significance of religion is its transcendental dimension. I know for myself that believing in a loving God and having a sense of purpose in my own life (and hope) has helped me tremendously through my own personal trauma. If you don’t see my point, then we won’t agree on this.

        As a gay man, I have myself experienced the potentially harmful side of religion. Bad religion and unhealthy interpretations of Scripture made me suicidal at one point. But my final realization was that the true meaning of the Bible was perfectly demonstrated by the person Jesus of Nazareth. His scathing rebukes were not directed at the outcast or “sinners” of his day, such as prostitutes and thieves, but towards the religious elite – towards the “church” of his day that claimed to know the Bible. He recognized and addressed the hypocrisy of the church. He hung out with and even justified the “sinners” that the church was excluding and condemning to hell. And finally the church killed him.

        So, yeah, I do absolutely see your point about Christians! It is atrocious, and the church has been probably one of the most corrupt institutions of all time, in my view, considering its history. I get that people want nothing to do with it or what it teaches. I nearly left it. But Jesus is something else than all that. That is one thing that I’ve learned. And considering his life and actions, I’m interested to hear whatever Jesus believed and taught. Jesus has been a source of immense personal comfort and hope and inspiration to me when I felt alone and hopeless.

        As a theology graduate, I would perhaps under different circumstances want to sit down and scrutinize your interpretations, some of which seem to be fallacious and overconfident, discussing with you the cultural context and conflicting translations in light of the language of the original manuscripts. But Jesus demonstrated what all of this means much better than I can explain. My faith is not in the church or religion per se or any one interpretation of the Bible, but in Jesus. And I’m not here to win any arguments, but to point to Jesus. Study him first!

        I can inform that I do not share your interpretation of predestination or hell. You speak as if all Christians agree with you, when there are signficantly differing interpretations of these texts. As an Adventist, I have an understanding of death and hell that is not eternal life in pain, but eternal non-existence. The lake of fire, says Scripture, is the second death. The dead know nothing and have no thought or action, it also says. The idea of an eternally burning hell and eternal torment is a result of the mixing in of Greek philosophy with Judaism/Christianity. Also, it is a result of the misunderstanding of the Hebrew use of “eternal”, which is different from how we use the word. “Eternal” and “forever” is often used in the Bible of things that go on until they of natural causes cease to exist. Such as priests working in the temple forever, or cities burning with “eternal fire” (fire that is not quenched until it has consumed everything). I’m saying this because I know and understand why atheists would want nothing to do with a figure that torments anyone forever. I agree; this idea is fundamentally immoral no matter how you twist and turn it.

        I agree with you that religion is not necessary for human beings to do what is good, but I think whenever someone does what is good, they are under divine influence regardless of whether they recognize it or not. This Paul also underlines in the Bible, that non-Christians can be guided by God’s Spirit. I believe God is not limited to the Bible or to religion, but operates through a multitude of channels and ways to enlighen people. But I believe the historical figure, Jesus of Nazarath, to be the visible, human incarnation of this divine being.

        One thing I’ve noticed is that atheists often accuse God for intervening too much while also accusing God for intervening to little. God’s interventions are used as evidence for God’s unjust, intolerant nature, and God’s non-intervention is used as evidence for God’s unjust, careless nature. Such people seem to have the full answer to how God should deal with evil. I don’t think this attitude is reasonable, but rather an emotionally driven reaction to their own horrible images of God. It’s hard to reason with someone who is fully convinced that God is a devil.

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      3. clubschadenfreude Avatar

        In that religions can’t show that they are transcendent, there is no reason to assume they are. Which definition of transcendent are you intending: exceeding usual limits : SURPASSING b: extending or lying beyond the limits of ordinary experience c:in Kantian philosophy : being beyond the limits of all possible experience and knowledge 2: being beyond comprehension 3: transcending the universe or material existence 4: universally applicable or significant
        Many people believe in their various gods, including the Christian god. That doesn’t make they real. Many people also have a sense of purpose, and hat isn’t limited to the religious. That helps many people and no god needed. Your point is based on something that is common for humans, and does not demonstrate any divine exists.
        You are gay? I do have to wonder about someone who is reviled in a religion accepting it as true. Christians all interpret their religion and they all get contradictory answers, showing that there is no reason to assume any of you have the supposed “right” one or that there is even a “right” one. You pick and choose to create a god in your image as most, if not all, Christians do. That’s nothing new. Yours is kinder and gentler, ignoring the bits where this god/jesus kills everyone who doesn’t agree it, etc.

        Many christains attack the “church” and as noted above create their own Christianity and their own jesus. This jesus supposedly taught that anyone who doesn’t accept him as king should be brought before him and killed (luke 19). He also said that one must follow *all* of the laws that are supposedly from this god, including those in the OT. Are you good with that jesus too?
        You seem to want to claim I’m wrong, but cannot show that they are. Cultural context and conflicting translations shows that your bible isn’t from any omnipotent or omniscient god.

        I’ve read the entirety of the bible, and I have found that it is quite otherwise when you claim that this jesus demonstrates anything good. The only source about this evidently imaginary character is the bible, and this jesus isn’t impressive there. I’m far father ahead in learing about what Captain American and Captain Kirk say.

        I am sure you don’t agree with predestination or hell, since Christians of all types have different baseless claims about those subjects. You all, again, make up your religion in your own image. I do know that Adventists are often claimed not to be Christians by other Christians.
        It is a common thing for a theist to try to claim, falsely, that everyone simply must be on their “team” when something beneficial is done. That has always struck me as greedy and selfish, an attempt to steal honor from the hard work that humans do.

        There is no evidence of a historical jesus nor of the magic jesus that Christians worship. At best, there may be some greater probability of a delusional jewish man at the core of the myth.
        An atheist, who finds your god imaginary, doesn’t accuse it for intervening too much or too little. We know it doesn’t do anything at all. Christians claim it intervenes and have no evidence for it, making up excuses when their god fails. We can point out how the stories have this god intervening and showing how there is no free will in the theology of Christianity.

        The stories in your religion, aka the bible, show injustice, unfairness, ignorance and hate. Happily, they never happened, but Christians pretend they have. So we have a god that is excused when it, in the stories, causes and commits genocide, kills people for the actions of others, and tells slaves to never seek their freedom. The sadistic fantasy of revelation has your god killing everyone who dares not agree with it, like any tyrant, and then working with its supposed archenemy to corrupt the Christians left. It is quite a story.

        This set of stories also promises that this god will always protect its followers, which doesn’t happen. The stories have this jesus promising that any true believer will get *any* prayer answered, without exception or excuse or needing to consider god’s will, and answered quickly. This also does not happen.

        Now, if you are a seventh day Adventist, your version of chrsitianity claims healing happens just like the bible promises. There is no evidence for this. Then Adventists claims that this magical healing comes from modern medicine, which begs the question, why did this god evidently hate so many people that dared to be born before it “gave” things like antibiotics, chemotherapy, etc to humans.
        The various arguments trying to excuse this god from doing anything against what we perceive as evil are just that, excuses, trying to cling to the idea of a god that supposed cares, but does nothing at all. The epicurean problem still stands:

        If God is unable to prevent evil, then he is not all-powerful.
        If God is not willing to prevent evil, then he is not all-good.
        If God is both willing and able to prevent evil, then why does evil exist?

        Most Christians will try to excuse this god with the claim of “free will”. That is a problem for them sine this god doesn’t allow free will. Any interference with humans destroys free will, and agin, the bible repeatedly states that people are already chosen by this god, there is no human choice to follow it.

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      4. davidkendel Avatar
        davidkendel

        I’m talking about the idea of the transcendent/eternal as a naturally occurring, anthropological phenomenon. Religion and faith in the transcendent (in all its various meanings) is an expression of a natural human orientation. There’s no reason to assume such an orientation is fundamentally wrong, but rather that it has its healthy (and unhealthy) expressions. The assumption that all religious belief is harmful is an ideological, antitheist view that is a belief based on one’s personal worldview and value system.

        I fully agree that many Christians go cherry-picking and ignore those parts they don’t like or that don’t suit their often political/power agendas. Many religious institutions follow power. And I will certainly acknowledge that I, too, have blindspots. I recognize the necessity of calling hypocrisy out, which is an important and noble task. Jesus himself emphatically criticized and condemned the abuse of Scripture in his day and gave scathing rebukes to the scribes and Pharisees, the religious leaders and teachers. Criticism has its place. There’s room for that, and for critical thinking, in biblical Christianity.

        But from my point of view, you’re operating at the same level of cherry-picking as the Christians you oppose. You seem to have, as they, taken a highly eclectic approach that allows you to ignore the major and essential principles of Scripture in order to substantiate a twisted and perverse understanding of it. I’m not saying you’re doing it on purpose – but in my view, you and many atheists and antitheists I’ve exchanged with over the years operate with a warped understanding of Christianity that says more about them and their (probably justifiable) emotional hurt rather than about the Bible. The antitheist ideology will not concede to the potential for good in religious faith that has been thoroughly demonstrated in the lives of so many people throughout history, including my own. I’m sorry if you’ve been hurt or offended by bad religion. But this does not change the fact that religion has been a major power for good for other people, including myself.

        Regarding the parable you referred to in Luke 19 – the Christian logic is simple and not unreasonable:
        1. Jesus is God and the source of life.
        2. It is impossible for people who reject the source of life to live forever.

        The death of the people who hate Jesus is not an arbitrary decree on God’s part, but the logical and natural result of people rejecting the Source to all life. The parables Jesus told were analogical, meaning they were highly simplified, human illustrations taken from a specific cultural contexts that people could relate to – in this case, ancient monarchies. The parables are imperfect representations of reality. Reading the rest of Scripture, and considering Jesus’ own life and treatment of people, it’s evident that death is not at all God’s desire or will for anyone, but a result of people’s own choice and God respecting this choice. People who hate God and set themselves against the laws set by God operating the universe – how can they survive? And why would they want to? Why would people who hate God want to live in God’s kingdom – the universe – forever? This would in truth be an eternal hell to them. If God delighted in tyranny, he would force them to live forever against their will. Death is the freedom from being with God, and God gives us what we ourselves choose. The Bible says that all will of their own accord acknowledge the justness of God in the end, including those who perish. And those who perish will not be held artificially alive in torment but will be separated fully from the Source of life and logically cease to be alive and exist. The Bible is clear that there is no knowledge or thought among the dead (Ecclesiastes 9). It is complete oblivion, an eternal sleep.

        No, Jesus did not teach that we must keep all the laws of the Old Testament – he said that nothing from the law would pass away until everything was fulfilled. He also said he had come to fulfill it. Many of the laws of Moses were symbolic representations of Christ’s work and were fulfilled and abolished at his death. Paul elaborates on the meaning of this in his letters about righteousness by faith and the law.

        I think your understanding of omnipotence is too restricted. I don’t think God is hindered by human diversity, but the Author of it. I think we have been given the ability to contextualize and do our research and to help each other out. The parables of Jesus, for instance, challenged people to reflect and investigate and use their brains and talk about it rather than being passively fed and programmed. To me this is a sign of the ingenuity of the Bible. It challenges us and develops in various ways the critical and reflective abilities of the reader who desires to understand. Sadly, many Christians and atheists aren’t willing to engage with the Bible critically because they have the idea that God does not want that, or that we shouldn’t have to put in the work. There is no salvation in passivity or complacency. Like everything else in life, we must exert our will to grow and develop.

        You’re saying that people telling you that you must be on their team is greedy and selfish, not respecting the hard work that you/others do. Is this not what you yourself are doing, though? You’re very confidently pushing highly controverted interpretations of Scripture that many Christian theologians who’ve devoted their entire lives to studying the Bible don’t even agree on. How are you any more humble than the Christians you’re angry with? I get that you might be angry, but you are after all speaking about the most significant book of all time and the majority worldview on this planet. Even if you were right, I can’t see how your approach would make any significant, fruitful impact among those who genuinely care about the Bible.

        There’s no sign of the historical Jesus? Yes, there is. See, statements like this don’t build your credibility. The vast majority of scholars agree that Jesus existed, so ignoring this betrays an intensely ideological agenda.

        Well, you literally just criticized the idea of God’s intervention. I’m just saying that you, like many atheists, have strong opinions about how the God you don’t believe in intervenes too little AND too much. And when I point to Jesus as the Bible teaches is the clearest revelation and intervention of God in our world, you claim there’s no evidence for his existence. You’re playing a game only you can win.

        The main problem is that you’re stuck on the old revelations of God given to a different time and different people – the Old Testament – and ignoring what the whole Scripture points to as the clearest revelation of God today – Jesus. The Old Testament does not, according to the Bible itself, show the truth about God in its fullness. “The law came through Moses; grace and truth came with Jesus Christ”, wrote John the Apostle. Christianity is a progressive religion and has always been. Truth is unfolded as the human mind develops and matures. God never changes, but we do.

        The Old Testament is a demonstration of God’s power and authority for various reasons. Firstly, the Old Testament demonstrates that the use of authority and power (through the law and legal punishment) is not enough to change the heart make people be good, as most people think. Law enforcement, power and politics will never heal our world. This lesson is vital. That is why God in the Old Testament promised a new and better covenant with the coming Messiah that was based on grace, forgiveness and faith. Paul explains this in his letters about the purpose of the law.

        Moreover, the people of ancient time put their trust in power and displays of power. The Israelites were former slaves and expected nothing less than the death penalty for any rebellious act. The death penalty of rebels, even of their entire families, was expected and thus required to preserve order and not plunge the entire people into anarchy in the ancient world. Tribal and familial loyalty was unbreakable, and so one evil person would draw with him his entire family into evil practices, even the children. God commanded that the children were not to bear the guilt of their parents (Ezekiel 18) – but the unquestioning loyalty of children and even infants (when they grew older) to their forefathers/tribe or roots, not to mention the contempt and suffering they’d be subjected to by the rest of the people for their deviance and/or family roots, very likely made death to be the lesser evil.

        Believe it or not, the laws of Moses were actually more tolerant and gave more rights to women and slaves than the laws of surrounding nations, according to various studies. It’s interesting to note what Moses said:

        “See, I have taught you statutes and rules, as the LORD my God commanded me, that you should do them in the land that you are entering to take possession of it. Keep them and do them, for that will be your wisdom and your understanding in the sight of the peoples, who, when they hear all these statutes, will say, ‘Surely this great nation is a wise and understanding people.’ For what great nation is there that has a god so near to it as the LORD our God is to us, whenever we call upon him? And what great nation is there, that has statutes and rules so righteous as all this law that I set before you today?” (Deuteronomy 4:5-8, ESV)

        To the people living at the time, the law of Moses was groundbreaking. To us it isn’t because we live in a culture and society that is saturated with Christian ethics and thinking. Christians and atheists who who build their interpretation of Christianity on Old Testament principles are missing the mark and do not understand the message of the Bible. Christ showed in the clearest sense how the principles of the Bible were to be understood and practiced. If Christianity is to be scrutinized, one must scrutinize the teachings and life of Christ before anything else.

        If you (again) pick out certain things from the sayings of Jesus, then yes, one might easily get the impression that anyone who asks him anything will get what they want, like a genie in a bottle. If you read the whole sum of what Jesus said, it becomes clear that Jesus’ promise was more mature and conditional – if we abide in him, meaning if we are filled with his Spirit – meaning if our will is in line with God’s overarching purpose of healing and salvation – we can expect our prayers to be answered. Moreover, Jesus did criticize his disciples for not persevering in faith and finally receiving what they prayed for. How strong is our faith when we pray, really? Lastly – there’s no time promise to prayers as you claim.

        Well, there actually is evidence that healing happens in some of the same ways today as described in the Bible, although all such testimonies are blankly rejected by skeptics as lies or delusional.

        The presence of disease and sickness in our world is not a result of God’s hate, but a natural result of people’s own choices. The existence of evil (and the recognition that there indeed is something that is evil or immoral) demonstrates that we indeed are able to make independent moral choices.

        God’s omnipotence does not include absurdity and self-contradiction. Thus, there are certain things that God cannot do while being omnipotent. God cannot both exist and not exist, for instance.

        God could prevent evil by not permitting free will (freedom til make moral choices). But if God didn’t give room for free will, he could not be truly loving. Love would not be real. In order to be truly good/just and to truly prevent evil, God must allow evil to exist. But God’s wisdom is permitting sin and evil for a time as a lesson to all intelligent creatures in order to prevent anyone from ever wanting to try that again. As free beings we must learn through trial and error.

        Many Christians do indeed provide readings of the predestination texts that undermine the principle of human choice and responsibility pervading the Bible. This is self-contradictory and absurd. Biblical predestination and election cannot be understood as to cancel the evident principle of human free will (to make moral choices) in the Bible.

        Rather, predestination signifies a divine foreknowledge of all the independent choices that every human being will make, and Christ’s choice to sacrifice himself based on this foreknowledge. God doesn’t control our choices, but he foreknew the choices we all would make and it’s in this way that the elect were chosen by God for salvation from the beginning of time. Before the creation of the world, Christ made the decision of sacrificing himself for the sake of the ones he knew would be saved through this sacrifice. The Lamb (Christ) was in this way slaughtered since the creation of the world, as the Bible says. Does this mean that Christ had no free choice but to create humanity and die for their sins? Of course not. God’s creation and self-sacrifice is a voluntary act. God chose freely to save humanity before humanity existed. It was not an afterthought.

        Just for the record, I think the questions you’re raising are valid and important. I understand the anger and resentment you might feel in the face of the unfairness of the unreasonable doctrines you’re addressing. And I think many Christians have a lot to learn from atheists when it comes to moral sensitivity and discernment.

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      5. clubschadenfreude Avatar

        Humans are evolved to look for action and intent. That we have made up gods in order to satisfy that. This does not mean those gods are real.

        Belief in the imaginary makes one make decisions based on false assumptions, and thus does cause harm.

        You are part of those many Christians, David, who cherry pick. And every Christian claims to have “biblical Christianity”. That’s the code word for “only we have the right understanding”. Not one of you can show this.

        Critical thinking in Christianity causes it to fail in my experience since critical thinking makes you consider why Christians don’t agree and why this god cannot be found, despite the many claims of Christians and their bible. The apologetics offered fail in the face of critical thinking.

        Every Christian, including you, has invented different “major and essential principles” of scripture, and every Christian claims that the others are twisting and perverting it. Again, not one of you can show this to be the case.

        Unfortunately, you also can’t show that my understand of Christianity is wrong. You claim a “warped understanding” when there is only a different understanding, just like with your fellow Christians.

        it is no surprise that you now try yet another false Christian claim, that atheists are somehow emotionally hurt so you might invent a reason to claim they don’t know your religion. That is rarely the case.

        The reason an antitheist doesn’t concede that your religion has potential for good is because that has never been the case, a problem of evidence for you. That good people exist in all religions shows that it is humans, not your religion, being good. That you claim there is “bad religion” is yet again just your disagreement with those who disagree with you.

        I do enjoy that you have done your own twisting to the verses from Luke 19, ignoring the essential fact is that your supposed messiah is ordering the murder of people, not that they simply won’t live forever. Why did you choose to lie that way?

        Nothing in your bible says that parables are what you claim. We have jesus in Matthew 13 saying exactly what they are and why they are used. There are similar parables to the parable of the minas, and in those you might get away with analogies, and in those this god is doing the killing. In this one, that is not the case. Your jesus is telling his followers, you, to kill those who won’t accept him.

        Death and damnation are both this god’s desire since this god has supposedly already chosen who it will allow to accept it and then the rest are discarded, e.g. broken pots. Unfortunately, your attempt to blame the victims doesn’t work thanks to your bible’s own claims.

        The universe, happily, isn’t your god’s kingdom. That’s a common claim by all cults. Your god does force people to live forever, to torture them eternally. And yes, I know some christiand deny the whole “hell” thing, alas, their bible shows them wrong.

        It is always fun to see chritsians make up nonsense wholesale “And those who perish will not be held artificially alive in torment but will be separated fully from the Source of life and logically cease to be alive and exist.” When your bible says
        “And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.””
        ““Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.”
        Matthew 25

        “And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.”” Revelation 14

        “They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might,” 2 Thessalonians 1
        “And throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” Matthew 13
        “Just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire.” Jude 1

        “And in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side.” Luke 16

        “47 And if your eye causes you to sin, tear it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into hell, 48 ‘where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.’ 49 For everyone will be salted with fire.” Mark 9

        And every cult claims that everyone will admit, or really knows, that the cult was right. That isn’t the case. Ecclesiastes 9 does say that and as always the bible books contradict each other.

        Unfortunately, for Christians, your jesus did say that *all* of the laws, no exceptions, are to be followed. Matthew 5 is quite clear on this. He said that nothing from the law would pass away until everything was fulfilled and earth and heavens pass away. Funny how earth and the heavens are still here.

        No evidence for the laws of the OT being somehow symbolic, since they were to be followed. But do explain what symbolized what if you want to make that claim. Now, let’s look at the actual verses.

        “17 ‘Do not think that I have come to abolish (: to end the observance or effect of (something, such as a law) : to completely do away with (something)) the law or the prophets; I have come not to abolish (: to end the observance or effect of (something, such as a law) : to completely do away with (something)) but to fulfil (to put into effect ). 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth pass away, not one letter, not one stroke of a letter, will pass from the law until all is accomplished. 19 Therefore, whoever breaks[d] one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, will be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.”

        Many Christians try to claim that fulfill means to put an end to, and in some contexts, it can mean that. In this case, it makes no sense to use that definition since the use of abolish already means to put an end to, and jesus is saying he is not doing that.

        Paul often contradicts Jesus, so appealing to him doesn’t work very well. Paul makes a great anti-christ.
        ROFL. Omnipotence means all-powerful and thus my understanding of it isn’t restricted at all. You have no evidence for your claim that this god is somehow the author of the “diversity” e.g. the confusion and contradiction in Christianity. Christians don’t help each other out, they accuse each other of being satanists, apostates, heretics, etc when they differ. The parables were not to exercise their brains, but were intended as secrets to keep others from understanding. Jesus says that directly in Matthew 13, and says that understanding was *given* to his followers; they didn’t come to it themselves and were indeed passively fed and programmed. There is no ingenuity here, just one more mystery religion common in those days.

        Then you return right back to insisting that only your version is correct, accusing other Christians and non-christians of not correctly “engaging” with your bible and agreeing with you.

        Per your bible, salvation s only in passivity and complacency. All you need is obedience. Growth and development are anathema, the will of the person is always subservient to the will of this god.
        Nope, I’m saying that Christians like you who lie and claim that everyone who does good is already on their team are greedy and selfish. But nice try to twist my words.

        It is unsurprising that you try a appeal to authority fallacy, with your insistence that my knowledge is somehow to be ignored if you can claim someone spent time inventing a version of Christianity you agree with. And yep, they don’t agree so why think they are any more right than me?

        Humility has nothing to do with this, David. I’m not claiming that all good comes from an imaginary god that I’ve invented and I can’t show exists. I am pointing out that since no evidence for this god, then no reason to attribute anything to it, including human work.

        Your claims that the bible is the most “significant book of all time” are based on ignorance and transitory status. What happens when the qu’an becomes the most influential book, and when Islam becomes the majority worldview as it will if current trends keep going. Christianity is not the majority worldview, since each Christian is quite sure the rest are wrong. You guys aren’t even in the top 5 when I can show how catholics, protestants, orthodox, anabaptists, Mormons, etc are all claimed to not be true Christians by the rest. You only want to claim majority when it is convenient for your logical fallacies of appeals to popularity, and the rest of the time, it’s just the circular firing squad again.

        As usual, you are also claiming that only you and those who agree with you “genuinely care about the bible.”, just like eveyr other Christian.

        Unsurprisingly, you can’t show any evidence for the historical jesus or the magical one. The majority of scholars, at best, think that a historical jesus, e.g. a delusional jewish man who claimed to be the messiah, probably existed. There is still no evidence for that one, only a higher probability than a magical one. There are none, except Christians invested in their religion, who think the magical one existed, and there is no evidence for that one at all. Your attempt to appeal to authority again fails.

        Yep, I did indeed criticize the idea of your god and its supposed intervention. No evidence for intervention in reality is the situation we have now. If we assume the bible is real, the claims of free will by Christians are destroyed since anytime an omnipotent being intervenes, free will is abrogated. Again, you try to present a false dichotomy when there is none, since there are two separate and unrelated situations: reality, and what your book claims vs what Christians claim. Your religion’s claims fail both.

        Still no evidence for jesus, and thus no intervention or revelation from this god. All you have is a book of contradictory stories.
        Finally, we have you claiming that you can ignore the “old revelations” of this god, and claim that they were only for a certain culture at a certain time. That is a problem since Christians always claim how important the “ten commandments” are. Are these to be ignored too? Per your own bible, jesus didn’t find them “old revelations” that didn’t apply to him and the people at that time (assuming he existed).

        Where in the bible does it say that the OT doesn’t show the truth of god “in its fullness”? The verses from John are these “14 And the Word became flesh and lived among us, and we have seen his glory, the glory as of a father’s only son,[d] full of grace and truth. 15 (John testified to him and cried out, ‘This was he of whom I said, “He who comes after me ranks ahead of me because he was before me.”’) 16 From his fullness we have all received, grace upon grace. 17 The law indeed was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. 18 No one has ever seen God. It is God the only Son, who is close to the Father’s heart, who has made him known.”

        Curious how Moses saw this god, so it seems that the author of John has a problem. It is Christian myth that tries to decry the jewish myth that it comes from. Christians can’t agree if their religion is “progressive” at all, David, so your claim is again just one more baseless opinion from one more Christian version. Curious how this god is limited by humans yet again by your claims, that the human mind must supposedly develop and mature. Humans aren’t any different in intelligence now than they were a couple of thousand years ago. For instance, this god could have taught humans about antibiotics, since they could have grasped the idea, and saved billions of lives. It didn’t, and humans came upon the idea themselves. That’s what we also see in the bible and the constant reinterpretation of it by humans; no god, just humans doing things as their knowledge increases. This is ending up where this god has fewer and fewer gaps to be stuck in.

        As for this god not changing, that’s also quite false per your own bible. This god changes its mind (Lot’s dickering with this god), changes what it promises (to punish or not to punish the descendents of sinners), etc.
        The OT is quite a demonstration of this god’s repeated failure, David. It fails in Eden, and then tries repeatedly to correct its failure by the flood, and then by the tower of babel, and then by the laws in the exodus story. This is supposedly an omniscient and omnipotent god who does this failure. This god should have known that these things wouldn’t be enough to change things and just send down ol’ JC, but it doesn’t, since JC hadn’t been invented yet. So this god does about killing humans repeatedly for no gain. Your invented lesson was never intended by the authors of the OT.

        Yep, just like the OT has, people did trust displays of power and the authors invented stories to show the power of their imaginary god. The Israelites weren’t slaves, so nope, they didn’t expect the death penalty for any rebellious act from that experience that never happened. They were a primitive people who demanded a death sentence for any rebellious act, like any bronze/iron age culture.

        Alas, evil is only an opinion with humans, and yep, cults find anyone who doesn’t agree with their imaginary nonsense to be “evil”. Yep, Ezekiel 18, says that children shouldn’t be punished for what they didn’t do, and gee, in Exodus 20, it says they should be. Which is the lie, David? Why does your god change? I find it hilarious that you claim that being murdered is better than being held in contempt. Wow. Great way to justify genocide, eh?

        The laws of moses weren’t any more tolerant than any other laws. That just shows your ignorance of other civilizations, David, something typical in Christians. Nope, this wasn’t a “great nation” or an ‘understanding people’, and surprise people didn’t flock to something that didn’t exist. Deuteronomy is quite a set of propaganda. The supposed kingdoms of israel and Judah were nothing special at all. Nothing came from them, despite the nonsense of having the world’s wisest man and a supposed god that was right there with them.

        It wasn’t groundbreaking at all, and western culture isn’t all or even mostly from Christianity. It’s from Greece, Rome, from the celts, from the Germanic tribes. The idea of democracy isn’t in your religion, David. The idea of science, started from a need to try to find this god, left the religion far behind in its ignorance. We long left the ignorance of a god appointing leaders, and the US constitution ignores the bible completely.

        Again, you try to claim that the life and teaching of JC should be scrutinized, just like every other Christian, and surprise, you all get different answers.

        Per the teachings of your jesus, it is quite clear that yep, any true believer will get what they want, quickly and without excuse or exception. There is no mention of having to follow this god’s will at all. Notably, those books where these promises are made, don’t have any mention of this god’s will in the book at all. There is no “whole sum” of what jesus said, only separate books that were written in different places at different times, and the authors invented their own jesus.

        Unfortunately, there is a time promise, David. The mountain moves immediately into the sea, it doesn’t get there from millions of years of erosion. But nice try to excuse your god’s inaction again. You only have attempts at blaming the victim to excuse your god “How strong is our faith when we pray, really?”
        You claim that there is evidence that healing happens. Surprise, you can’t show any. Testimonies are worthless without evidence. And gee, David, do you discount the testimonies of other theists who claim their gods do things too? I’m quite sure you do. Funny how not one amputee, or burn victim, or anyone else with a visible illness or injury gets healed.

        Again, here we go with the blaming of victims to excuse your god’s impotence. Disease and sickness come from natural causes, bacteria, viruses, etc. Us humans have done quite well in countering them, which makes your attempts to blame humans *for* these diseases quite silly.

        We can indeed make independent moral choices, and they are entirely subjective. Again, chritians make claims for objective morality and surprise, they can’t agree on what morals this god wants.
        Hmm, now who has restricted view of omnipotence, David? As always, the Christian makes excuses for what their god can’t do as they find it convenient. You say that this god could prevent evil by eliminating free will. Hmm, since it prevents evil in heaven, is there no free will in heaven? Your argument means heaven has nothing to do with love.

        Your excuse that this god allows “trial and error” is quite amusing since that looks just like a universe without a god. It’s also hilarious to see you claim that this god must allow evil to exist to prevent evil. That makes no sense.
        Sine the bible doesn’t support free will, there is nothing “self-contradictory and absurd” about Christians and their predestination texts. You assume one thing is true and they assume another; neither can show that their assumptions are true. There is no evidence principle of free will at all, especially in your bible. If this were the case, do tell how David’s son had free will.
        No, predestination doesn’t mean “divine foreknowledge” but nice try to redefine a word. Predesintation means that everything has to go god’s way for the result wanted to happen. There was no foreknowledge for the whole jesus thing in your bible. Only a retconning in the NT of the OT tried to establish that.

        As soon as you admit election, you fail at free will, David. As both jesus and Paul state in your bible, this god chose people before they existed, nothing is mentioned about this god knowing what they would do as a requirement for this choice. You again make up and add things to the biblical nonsense as all Christians do. There would be no need for a slaughtering if this god already knew who would do what. And nope, jesus wasn’t dead before the creation of the world. It was to be a sacrifice that had to come after human action, not before it. And yes, it does mean, if you make your silly claims, that there was no voluntary sacrifice of your god to itself. It had no choice in the matter. It *had* to happen. Of course, there was no sacrifice since there was no permanent loss.
        Happily, no resentment and the only anger I have is for the lies and ignorance that Christians spread and use it to cause harm. Yep, Christianity is unfair and unreasonable, all version of it, based on a god that murders people for the actions of others, a god that commits and commands genocide, and a god that tells slaves to never seek their freedom. Some of you might ignore the parts you don’t like, but you are stuck with your bible.

        All Christians, and other theists, have a lot to learn from atheists. The most important is to look at their religions as an outsider and see how flawed they are. John Loftus has a good book on that idea.

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      6. davidkendel Avatar
        davidkendel

        I suggest we end our exchange here. You’re not paying the least attention to what I’m writing.

        I’ve already planned on writing a post an hell and the Bible later where I go through the texts, including those you referred to. It’s really not that hard to understand. Eternal fire = unquenchable fire that burns until everything is consumed and destroyed. Sodom and Gomorra are not still burning, yet they were punished with eternal fire. (Burnt ruins and sulfur have also been discovered where these cities are assumed to have rested.) Death is consistently referred to as a sleep by Jesus, Paul, Ecclesiastes… And Ezekiel plainly states the Satan himself will be consumed and turned to ash (Ezekiel 28). Malachi 4 says all the wicked will be burnt to ash and no trace will be left of them. Revelation 21 says that there is no more pain or suffering in the end, because all the former things have passed away. The lake of fire is explained to be the second death in the same chapter. God, says Paul, is the only one who has immortality (1 Timothy 6)… I could go on.

        But you blankly brush aside the points I’ve made so far and will continue to do so, and you now make up verses that don’t even exist. And you stand by that Jesus isn’t even a historical figure that has existed. All this speaks for itself.

        Lastly, I’m intrigued by your desire to write so extensively about something you hate so much and do not have the least faith in. To me it seems like you’re somewhat religiously suppressed. It seems like you deep down actually do believe in God, and a very abusive one as such. That’s how it comes across, anyway.

        Take care!

        David

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      7. clubschadenfreude Avatar

        I write so extensively since chrsitians do love to try to get away with false claims about their bible, etc, and how it “should” be interpreted. IT’s easy to lie, much harder to support a case.

        I know that the bible is incredibly contradictory when it comes to hell. As always, christians make up what they want in their own images, taking from the ignorant writings of several thousand years ago that were never meant to be put together.

        I’ve not blankly brushed anything aside, and you know that since you comment on how much i write.

        Happily, I do not believe in your god or any gods, David. Christians often try to convince themselves that everyone “really” agrees with them. I don’t.

        I do point out how abusive your imaginary friend is. That you must do your best to invent excuses for it is telling.

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  3. SIBYL C.Anne Avatar
    SIBYL C.Anne

    Oh my god!
    GOD isn’t as HARD to UNDERSTAND as all you Intellectual Beings Suppose.
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